We've joined the community and some updates on Structure!
Category: Unknown · Tags: — · Posts: 50
#1 — ErogenousTones · 2018-07-28
Given our current foray into visual synthesis, and the gracious hosting of visual synthesis manufacturers by LZX, here we are!
We’ve been hard at work on Structure, every single day since we showed the latest prototype at Moogfest and we plan on having the final fully working hardware at KnobCon (as it will be going into production just before or during that time).
Recently we finally have Composite (CVBS) or RGB (LZX 1V) working on the prototype into our system! This was the last big milestone we wanted to hit. Currently we’ve been working with Lars very closely on cleaning up the sync timing and proper blanking required to be fully compatible with the LZX spec.
We are super excited to get this out, and we want to stress that Structure will not be a static product. If any of you have seen what we did with GateStorm and the level of updates I made to functionality over time, that same level of commitment is coming to Structure, but even more. From the beginning the system is designed to have upgraded firmware because, to be quite frank, there is just so much we have planned, we didn’t want people to have to wait for every single feature we have imagined possible.
Plus, we also like getting feedback from the community and incorporating those changes/enhancements. We are artists as well, and we know sometimes when the engineering and programming hats come off, you see the things you create from an artistic standpoint, and that really can change the way you interact with something.
If you have any questions, ask away, and we’ll see what we can answer!
#2 — pbalj · 2018-07-28
I’m not terribly familiar with Structure. Can you give a description of the module here?
#3 — ErogenousTones · 2018-07-28
Sure! Structure is visual generator that is based on OpenGL. You can either have it generate visuals of the huge collection of included GLSL generators, or, you can have it process incoming video that is either composite or LZX 1V RGB.
The output is Composite.
It included 2 audio inputs (that can be used at CV rate), and 8 CV sources. 3 are from inputs with offset/scale and 1V/5V selectable mode. 2 are from an XY joystick, and 3 are from macro knobs used as an output control section by default.
There are 3 gate inputs (all with buttons as well) and quite a few keys for navigating different features. It also has an integrated display for preview and other UI based functions.
The system works on a node graph architecture that allows us to create different configurations with different types of nodes.
We’ll be showing the final hardware version at KnobCon this year. We also plan to release the firmware in stages, because we’d like to get it into community hands as we integrate the many new features we keep dreaming up!
#4 — wednesdayayay · 2018-07-28
this sounds pretty awesome I love more minds getting into this art form!
so my question is how do you feel structure fits into a larger video synth setup
like what would be your basic use case?
I see you can use GLSL generators I’m currently looking that up to see what it means
in what ways can incoming video be processed
do you all have an instagram account or something along those lines?
#5 — Maytoast · 2018-07-28
So happy you’ve joined the party here. I’ve been stalking your Facebook for ages about this. If anyone looks up eroggenous tones on Facebook their page has some images and I belief a brief glimpse of video. But the development has been ongoing so I’d love to see where y’all at today. Super excited!
#6 — anomad · 2018-07-28
. hello wednesdayayay
. regarding Structure - we feel it would be at home in almost any video setup.
it can be used to process incoming video or generate visuals based on GLSL generators and effects. we’ve built a routing matrix to take incoming CV, audio, or MIDI data to modulate available parameters. so, it could be the centerpiece of a video setup, an extensive and responsive effects unit for video processing, or as a dynamic visual generator that feeds into LZX gear, VJ software (via capture card), or other video hardware among other things.. for GLSL shaders, i recommend checking out these two websites: https://www.shadertoy.com http://glslsandbox.com
both websites have real time interactive GLSL code (where you can tweak values and functions to see what happens). a caveat thought, the video system on Structure is more modest than those on modern laptops - so ray marching, larger for loops, and complex shaders generally do not work (primarily due to memory constraints). however, some of the simpler shaders look great, especially layered w/effects. overall performance is dictated by how many shaders, effects, and objects are being used for a patch.
. video input will be able to be processed via GLSL shaders as well, which opens up a lot of possibilities - we have pixellate, posterize, mirror + kaleidoscope, HSV rotation, color shifting, sobel, tunnels, etc. we have a lot of effect shaders we’ve been fine tuning for release and have plans for many more. our node based system allows you to configure multiple effects and control how they’re mixed before the final output - giving you even more options !
. as we get closer to the final release, we’ll be releasing more information and demonstrations.
#7 — ErogenousTones · 2018-07-28
This article on Moogfest shows the previous prototype, the final version is different (we decided to change the output section and change the buttons somewhat).
But, gives you an idea of the display with a preview and some CV feedback going on!
https://reverb.com/news/the-most-exciting-synths-of-moogfest-2018We're taking a look at some of the most exciting new synths unveiled on the show floor this year.
Link: The Most Exciting Synths of Moogfest 2018
#8 — wiatrob · 2018-07-29
Welcome gents! It’s an exciting time to be a visual synthesist!
I’m planning to place one in my Digital case (which doesn’t exist yet
) with Memory Palace and Diver and some modulators…
#9 — ErogenousTones · 2018-07-30
Doing the same myself! Well, I am putting both analog and digital in the same case, but CANNOT wait for the new Orion series to interact with Structure!
#10 — creatorlars · 2018-08-01
A giant official welcome, @ErogenousTones and @anomad!! Thanks for being a part of this community site with us.
#11 — Zifor · 2019-07-29
Looking forward to some videos of LZX working along side with Structure!
#13 — JohnWynberg · 2019-08-09
The first time I saw a picture of Structure, of an earlier prototype, I got very excited with the Component In and Out. So when Structure was finally released, I felt disappointed by the lack of Component Out. I felt the integration with a LZX system would be pretty much one way only, LZX going into Structure. But, still, so far I love the results I’m getting, re-colorising the Structure output through Visual Cortex. Of course, Structure is a lot of fun on its own, or processing video signals from LZX… “Just” for that, it’s already worth it.
In the Erogenous Tones’ website they mention the possibility of chaining a Composite => HDMI and a HDM=> Component, to get the colour video signal into Visual Cortex, but in practice I doubt it would work. Has anyone tried it?
#14 — ErogenousTones · 2019-08-09
Earlier on, we were going to put LZX 1V out, but we realized the cost to do this for the end user would have pushed STRUCTURE into the $1200 (or more) range, and we felt that it didn’t make a lot of sense to make every user pay for that when only a subset required it. We spent a lot of time talking with Lars on his thoughts and we both agreed that the Dual TBC was the way to go. So we built STRUCTURE with using a TBC in mind (which we cannot wait to get ahold of ourselves!)
We have used a first edition TBC to get into Visual Cortex, and that works perfectly.
Pertaining to HMDI->Component, we have had some success with the chaining that was mentioned, but I will say the quality of HMDI->Component converter we used wasn’t that great. Given how inexpensive it was, that’s probably why.
We just purchased about 7+ different composite to HDMI converters, from $10 to $400 to do a little write up on the quality of each. We can probably get some component converters too if you don’t mind waiting for us to do those tests (Right now, we are preparing for KnobCon as well). But I could order a few this weekend and get back to you with the results.
#15 — JohnWynberg · 2019-08-09
There is no hurry. I just got the Structure a few days ago, and this thing is deep… It’ll keep me busy for quite a while, just trying everything it can do. I thought I just mentioned the issue about getting the colour output into Visual Cortex, since it was what stopped me from buying Structure for a whole two weeks… Just in case there are other people with the same concern, and others that already found a solution. I’ll probably wait as well for the TBC2. But until then, it will be nice to know of some cheaper converters that actually work. Thanks for taking the effort (and the expense) to try different converters.
#16 — ErogenousTones · 2019-08-12
Just ordered 3 different types to test, so we will roll this into our test on the composite to HDMI as well!
#17 — Nilson · 2019-09-01
Hello to all
I’m new into modular video, I just ordered my Structure! So excited about this!
I was just wondering if someone could help me.
How could I use structure with some LZX modules and the send it back into a beamer or a TV screen?
Thank u all
#18 — JohnWynberg · 2019-09-02
Hi Nilson,
If the TV or beamer take Composite, that’s not a problem. Structure has 2 Composite outs.
Structure works well with LZX modules, but if you want to process the output from Structure using LZX modules, then you need something like Visual Cortex and/or TBC2. Visual Cortex will give you 2 more Composite OUTs, that you can use to connect to TVs or beamers.
#19 — Nilson · 2019-09-02
Hi,
Thanks for the answer.
That’s what I feared. I just bought the structure at 850euros and and that have more money to buy the Visual Cortex
Is there any option to find it from second hand or cheeper?
#20 — Agawell · 2019-09-02
you’ll be lucky finding a new VC, let alone a used one - they sell fast and there aren’t really that many out there - probably somewhere over 500 (based on Lars quote of 450 last year)
other possibilities are Vidiot (about the same price and just as rare as VCs) or DIY (look at the cadet line for something similar to VC)
do you have other eurorack? if so I’d just start off by modulating Structure with that (lfos etc)
#21 — Nilson · 2019-09-02
Hey,
Thanks a lot for all the information
I ll take a closer look at all the Cv or vidiot coming out!
Cheers
#22 — tylerm · 2019-09-05
Always keep an eye on the official LZX production schedule. As of this post, more Vidiots are being produced in September and more VCs in October, though you might have a better chance of getting a VC since it denotes “order #xxx and higher” instead of a specific range like the Vidiot. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jCBEN4kzURMhLS4aWuQC0m1P6Q-0NtSaxpaG9SyV0w8/edit#gid=0
#23 — JohnWynberg · 2019-09-06
If you’re looking for a Vidiot in Europe, Schneidersladen have some in stock, but at 829 €. I got my Structure from them, but you got yours 100 € cheaper, so your supplier might be better. Where was that?
#24 — Nilson · 2019-09-06
Hey,
I was wondering what was the best?
I d like to go from structure to lzx module to video projector?
Vidiot or vc?
Thanks for the advertisement, I ll take a look on schneidersladen
#25 — JohnWynberg · 2019-09-06
Going from Structure to Visual Cortex has the downside that Visual Cortex would only take the Composite signal from Structure as B&W. That was the main reason it took me a whole couple of weeks, before succumbing to the idea of getting a Structure. The original idea was to include also Component OUT, so it could integrate better with LZX systems, but, as explained above, that was likely not necessary for most users, and it would have added to the price of Structure. So, if you want full colour from Structure into Visual Cortex, you’ll need a TBC2 (not yet released), or use some video converters… The guys at Erogenous Tones are testing some options. With that in mind, I think the Visual Cortex is better if you plan on eventually expanding your system with more LZX modules. Also, it’s very cool using Visual Cortex to colourise the output from Structure, so not necessarily a huge downside.
I can’t really comment on the Vidiot, since I don’t have one. Not sure if it can take full colour from a Composite signal, but I doubt it. In that sense, it’s probably similar to VC. Apart from that, it is probably the most complete/compact solution for the price. And it also plays well with LZX modules. I think it’s really difficult to argue against Vidiot, even if I’m still quite partial to Visual Cortex.
Any particular reason you don’t want or simply not considering to go from LZX to Structure to projector?
#26 — Nilson · 2019-09-06
Yes, thank you for all of that!
I wanted to use structure as a generator and modifie the signal in the lzx component and then send it to a video projector.
If I used the lzx modules and send it into the structure I would lost a part of all the structure generativ stuff, wouldn’t I?
#27 — JohnWynberg · 2019-09-06
With just a Visual Cortex, you wouldn’t be able to modify the output from Structure a lot, apart from colourising it and applying some effects (negative, solarisation…), some of which Structure already includes. Visual Cortex really allows you to do more, the more other modules you have. Depending of what exactly do you have in mind, how you want to modify that “generative stuff” from Structure, then you need to look for the modules that would allow you to do that. Visual Cortex then would act as the interface between Structure and those modules, and give you the output to the projector.
I don’t want to put you off from going that way, but… Why not just modifying the generative stuff within Structure? I assume by “generative stuff” you mean the GLSL visuals or from the audio/xy visualisers. Structure certainly has lots of possibilities/effects to modify whatever its source. And it can do more to a simple shape from Visual Cortex, than Visual Cortex on its own can do to the output from Structure.
Of course, having a Structure, plus Visual Cortex and/or Vidiot, plus some other LZX modules, is great. The more, the better. If you have the money, go for it. But if the budget is tight, take it slowly. On its own, Structure is a huge module, that can keep you busy for a while. Vidiot should also be fun to have, but others could advise you better, how much you could modify the output of Structure with it.
#28 — Nilson · 2019-09-06
Hello,
You got me!
I ll try structure alone for a while, it should be enough for starting.
Then I ll be looking for a Vc to enlarge my set up
Yes that was the point, il wanted to use the Cv between those modules and the structure
But as you sais… Lot of cash
Thanks for all the answer!
#29 — wednesdayayay · 2019-09-06
both Vidiot and VC will work
I’ve had and used both with the structure
I’m not sure what is best for you or what kind of output you are after
Visual cortex would be my answer as far as expandability towards the future
modifying B&W images is a cornerstone of video synthesis
if we can’t understand how to do that then doing it with Three B&W images is going to be much more difficult…
instagram.comhttps://www.instagram.com/p/B197yLMhvoX/
https://www.instagram.com/p/B197yLMhvoX/20 Likes, 0 Comments - Nichole Pichon (@nicholepichon) on InstagramLink: Instagram post by Nichole Pichon • Sep 3, 2019 at 11
so the last several things I’ve been posting utilizes a setup that is being talked aboutmempal > structure > visual cortex
the secondary path is coming from the Luma out on VC (result of structure) into a
function gen > passage > mapper block
the output of which 1) goes to a VC channel and 2) goes back into the mempal input
this bit of wisdom form the FB ground was helpful in terms of color workflows and if you are wanting to work in full color it should be understood!
now it would be super easy to get full color images from structure into VC without the TBC2
just get the little ambery box everyone recommends it works very well
(although I do like going into it from the Svideo output from something rather than composite but you take what you can get). I think it is only ~$80 there are other brands but this is the one I’ve tried and seen recommended it works flawlessly for me. Now this will obviously not give you the benefits of the TBC2 (two inputs, 2 sets of LZX 1v 1/8 outputs, apparently the ability to load and use stills like on mempal!) but will get full color structure into the VC.
it really depend on what you are trying to do
I’ve got one of those ambery boxes and I’m having a blast making use of this small setup without it currently
don’t forget there are plenty of shaders that deal with B&W just fine…some are even made for it
I haven’t tried them in a while but there are also the RCA to 1/8 cables that you see come with consumer cameras sometimes. I have some I’ll grab from the studio to see what happens when I take one of the structure outputs and put it into something like staircase. Without something like VC you wouldn’t be able to then see the results unless you set structure to VID and and the staircase outputs back into the structure LZX 1v inputs…
structure deals with feedback very well
#30 — JohnWynberg · 2019-09-06
That “little ambery box” looks interesting… I wish it was available in the EU. Importing it from the States seems to double its final price. Still, I might get one. It’s nice to know that it really works with Structure and VC. I can’t understand why there aren’t more things like this in Europe.
As for colourising B&W video signals, I’m also a big fan, love the results. I was only pointing out above that simply going from Structure into Visual Cortex one doesn’t get the colours from Structure.
#31 — wednesdayayay · 2019-09-06
absolutely! it is a good thing to know
as plugging in a composite signal on the structure will give you color input but on the VC it won’t
another interesting thing to try if you don’t have the ambery box but do have more composite outputs
is to plug in different inputs as if there were a complete component signal into the VC
my experiment was using the mempal and structure going out into the VC as well as 1 channel of VC feedback
so my component input (on the VC) was full but it consisted of three separate composite signals
it adds them together on the LUMA output which can be cool
also if you try to then use the color outputs on VC it gives a weird texture
there are so many funny little gotcha moments in video synthesis
#32 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Hellooo everybody,
Stupid question but are there any powered up buttons?
Because I plug de 12v power in and it doesn’t start… I tried with a 9v and an other power supply
It doesn’t work
Thanks
#33 — cinema.av · 2019-09-11
@Nilson, No - you need Eurorack power. 12v DC is to offload some of the power draw from USB in racks that are close to maximum power usage.
#34 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
So euro rack is something I need to order?
With the 12v power supply and the structure I can’t do anything?
#35 — cinema.av · 2019-09-11
Yes, ET were powering structures standalone w these at knobcon: https://www.perfectcircuit.com/4ms-pod40x-powered.html , or if you’d like to expand w other euro modules, the 48x, or any other 84 or 104hp case will do just fine.
#36 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Owww okay
I thought the powered at the back of the structure would work without anything else.
With the eurorack you just send me before it should be ok?
#37 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Cause I just ordered the recommanded power supply by erogenous stone themselves
And they don’t talk at any moment about an eurorack.
But I m a nooby in modular video
#38 — cinema.av · 2019-09-11
yea, nah it’s just there to offload power consumption because it draws about 400ma, which conjunction w a full case of high powered digital video modules, could be too much for one power supply to take. but yes, EG were housing their structures in individual pods mentioned above during Knobcon this last weekend without a single hiccup. I would suggest the 48x version to give you a little more room for additional modules, like mults or lfos. https://www.perfectcircuit.com/4ms-pod48x-powered.html
#39 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Okay Thanks a lot!
I’m about to order the one you advise me.
#40 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Last one, what power brick would you take?
I’m so confused…
#41 — cinema.av · 2019-09-11
https://www.perfectcircuit.com/4ms-power-brick-pod-series.htmlThis power brick is intended for use with 4ms's Pod series of Eurorack enclosures, providing ample power and a good price.
Price: 15Brand: 4MS
Link: Power Brick - for Pod Series Cases
#42 — Nilson · 2019-09-11
Yess thanks that’s was the one I was looking.
I was just wondering, there won’t be any problem with the structure if the power brick is 15v and 3A?
#43 — cinema.av · 2019-09-11
you’ll be just fine with the linked power brick, no need to think any further.
#44 — Uitsaats · 2019-09-16
Waiting for structure i’m thinking about Arturia RackBrute 3U, found several unambiguous opinions on it, what do you think? If its ok what should i do with additional barrel power jack? sorry for offtop and noob question.
#45 — Agawell · 2019-09-17
I’d go bigger - a tiptop mantis is a much better buy - $/hp - by a long way and you get the full 208hp
also I haven’t heard any info on the noise level of the rackbrute cases - but then I haven’t looked at them - you want much higher specs than for audio (ie lower ripple at higher frequencies) - I have a mantis and it’s pretty decent for video - unless you want a lot of diy modules as it’s not very deep - there are only a few places where some of the diy modules will fit
otherwise the doepfer cases with the PSU3 are apparently good
#46 — Uitsaats · 2019-09-17
Thanks Agawell!
One more question, a ribbon power cable… , am I right and it goes with structure module or I should order it additionally?
#47 — Agawell · 2019-09-17
the ribbon power cable should be included with the module and preferably attached
one thing to be careful with is making sure that you plug the cable in the correct way - check the cable is connected to the module correctly - red stripe on the cable to -12v/redstripe indicator and that you plug the other end in correctly
busboards with keyed headers are an advantage here (mantis has keyed headers)
as long as the supplied power cable is correct of course - I’ve had at least one that wasn’t
#48 — Uitsaats · 2019-09-17
Great! Many thanks, Jim!
#49 — Jefro · 2020-05-17
I had been weighing the pros and cons of Structure vs Memory Palace. I didn’t have room for both. I recently watched several videos on Structure, and the ability to sling some code to “roll my own” shaders, put the nail in coffin on my decision. I’m now a proud new owner of a Structure module, it just arrived this weekend. Thanks, this thing is really dope!
#50 — ErogenousTones · 2020-05-17
Welcome to the family! the greatest part about all these modules is they work great mix and match as you build your system! Be sure to go over to Facebook and add the STRUCTURE user group, we are always on there chatting about new stuff, also, make sure you grab the latest firmware!!! We are always adding new features!
Rick
#51 — Tremendm_Labs · 2020-08-11
@ErogenousTones thanks for the newest update AND the text functions, so useful for our stream.