Is anyone here still interested in 1st and 2nd gen LZX modules?
Category: Uncategorized · Tags: — · Posts: 56
#1 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
Is anyone here still interested in 1st and 2nd gen LZX modules now that we have gen3 on the way? I’ve noticed some people can’t wait for the new stuff, they want to get into video modular right now. Some of us have video modular systems already, but how many want to add more gen2?
#3 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
I’m not in a position to buy any more gen2, as I only have clean power for one cabinet and its full. So my only expansion option now will be gen3. I’m selling some of my gen2 modules to pay for this.
#4 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
I’m in the UK and selling UK-only for now. I may reconsider in the new year, but international shipping will be unwise at this time. I expect any shipping to be chaotic for the next few months. Otherwise I’d definitely offer you my WoTA. It’s a great module but I just don’t have space for it in my “clean power” cabinet, so I can’t keep it. Of course, if nobody offers you one in the next few months, and mine is still available, then a transaction should be possible!
#6 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
Yes, that sounds great!
#7 — sean · 2021-11-02
Personally, probably in more of a wait-and-see mode on both buying the new stuff and buying any older stuff until I have more of a sense of what all the new stuff will be and can do.
Definitely still see some older modules as having appeal as new purchases at the moment. But conversely, yeah, starting to think I may sell some older modules to fund new ones too.
#8 — scavengers · 2021-11-02
I’m still collecting/working with Gen2 (and I have a waveform generator) that I love! Still learning all the interactions and getting crazy looking stuff out of it, so I’ll only become more powerful when I get my hands on Gen3.
#9 — FranzKappa · 2021-11-02
I don’t believe we’re gonna see gen.3 modules in the near future.It‘s two years now that i’m waiting for the chromagnon and i predict that it will not be released in fall or in winter.
#10 — rempesm · 2021-11-02
People have FKG-3s in their racks right now.
#12 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-02
Planning on keeping my VC and Navigator for now to see how they integrate with TBC2. I might be interested in modules like a WOTA or a VWG if they were reasonably priced. That said, I’ve already found solutions to my noise and (vertical) oscillator needs, so I can wait for the Gen3 modules that cover those functions (and probably more) in less hp and for a lower price.
#13 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
Yes, I expect WotA will work well with gen3 modules. Will there ever be a gen3 equivalent? Would it be worth waiting for? How long would that wait be? What could you use until then? Why shouldn’t that be a WotA?
However, there may be some other points to consider. While I appreciate the ability to modulate noise parameters at video rates, if that isn’t something you want to use, then a more random source of video noise may do the same job. I.e. an external video source, like a recording of video noise. This can easily be created on a computer, recorded in a file and played back via VC, TBC2 etc. For this reason, TBC2 running on 12v DC in my gen3 cabinet makes more sense than WotA taking up scarce space in my “clean power” cabinet.
WotA might give me more functionality in the noise dimension, but I lose too much in the space dimension. TBC2 plus a simple video player gives me enough of the functionality of WotA while only taking up space in a cabinet which I’m unlikely to fill. Not everyone will have the power/space issues I have, of course.
Perhaps I’m not alone in finding this kind of balance between gen3 and earlier modules. I don’t know many other gen1/gen2 modules I can trade like this. Selling a WotA on its own won’t pay for a TBC2, but the external noise source will only use half a TBC2, so the trade only needs to pay for half the TBC2 cost.
#14 — nerdware · 2021-11-02
I still have a few gen1 modules in my system. I esp love the old multimode filter module. Nothing like it exists in gen2, but perhaps there could be a gen3 equivalent. Anyway, I use all 3 filter outputs and sometimes the edge detector, but Curtains does tha better. Bandpass is my fav filter response. I love using 3 of those and blending them.
So I think that one will be a keeper, but I’m far less sure about the sequencer/quantizer module. I can’t imagine there being a gen3 equivalent. It’s too weird. I guess it exists in gen1 because Dan Sandin had a similar module. You can see him using it in a video on YouTube, tweaking the levels.
You never know, that might be another keeper.
#15 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-03
I reread the entire Gen3 thread a couple of nights ago. What I took away from it was that the following modules would be stuck in NTSC/PAL (I might be forgetting a couple),
Visual Cortex
Fortress
WOTA
Navigator
Escher Sketch
NTSC/PAL encoders and sync generators
Prismatic Ray CAN be synced to an HD source, through the front panel sync input. Same with other oscillators. I think Diver will be able to run at HD sync once the firmware is updated as well.
I don’t have a WOTA, so I can’t speak to it’s functions. I am intrigued by the H and V workflow. Personally, I’m using a Reverselandfill SNOW as my primary noise source. It’s great! I have an SSF Quantum Rainbow that I’ve scaled into 0-1V for different noise textures as well.
I have used the SNOW as a source for a staircase and then used a video rate cv (Fortress DAC for example) for the phase and/or multiply inputs. Doorway compliments that patch really well. Not sure if that is what WOTA does though.
Based on the Gen3 modules that have been announced, I’m sure the new WOTA is going to be way better and less expensive, with a smaller HP footprint. If you prefer to generate noise through your computer, then you save the hp altogether. The only advantage (at the moment) about the physical module is that it’s easier to cross-patch into the rest of your system.
#16 — nerdware · 2021-11-03
Yes, I may be making some assumptions about WotA. For HD, you can use WotaA in an SD patch and route your VC output into TBC2 for upscaling. If WotA can work more directly with gen3, even better. I hope you’re right about Diver, as that would be wonderful.
I agree about syncing PR to gen3 modules, e.g. a pulse output from a DWO. PR can also be used at audio and animation rates, of course.
I’m pretty sure the Router in the rotator patch, from the gen3 thread, can be replaced with a Passage. Even at video rates, the sin/cos waveforms should be well within the bandwidth range of gen1/gen2 modules.
For animation rates, I suspect the Doepfer quadrature LFO could be used instead of half a DWO. This has all 4 outputs needed for rotation, saving a Router or Passage for other roles. The LFO outputs would need a little trimming, but that’s trivial. ART can do that itself.
I hope someone tries that and posts some video when they get an ART module. I’d love to see how that looks.
Whoops, that LFO idea is a little off-topic.
#17 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-03
Syntonie V006 quadrature oscillator might be a better option because it’s already in 0-1v, so you don’t have to burn any hp scaling it into your system. You can even take it up to audio rates.
#18 — nerdware · 2021-11-03
Thanks, but this is one of the many options not available to me at this time. No shop in the UK sells Syntonie or BSO modules. Due to unique local circumstances, ordering international is currently unwise.
However, LZX modules are sold here, and ART already has scaling. So I expect that to be available from a UK shop at some point in the future.
Also, the QLFO is cheaper.
Well, it would be if it was available. This is why I can’t test this idea. Someone else might, but I’ll have to wait for a UK shop to restock this module.
#19 — Marizu · 2021-11-04
The Syntonie quad lfo is currently available as a DIY kit at Thonk (UK).
https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/syntonie-vu006-kit/Link: Syntonie VU006 – QUADRATURE OSCILLATOR – Full DIY Kit – Thonk – DIY...
I’ve also had good experiences ordering BSO from the UK.
#20 — creatorlars · 2021-11-04
With existing system owners, I’m very interested in the topic of which Gen3 modules (currently announced or not) might balance out the needs of your existing systems in ways that complete their function sets in a satisfying way. What have you found lacking with your existing systems and how could we balance this out?
Gen3 doesn’t have to mean starting over – it can mean more access to function blocks that give you control over tuning your existing instrument. My intended/hopeful “ongoing story” for those of you with medium/large Expedition series is that we will find strategic ways to swap a few modules for new options that let you pack more per HP into existing cases, and “finish out” various aspects of exploring your favorite Expedition modules.
Maybe you love Prismatic Ray and vibe with that so much that you have 4, but there’s not much room left in your case. And despite loving the module, you never really know what to do with that many waveshape variations. SMX-3 and FKG3 are perfect for that job.
Or maybe you need the opposite: TONS of VCO sources to feed into your favorite modules like Marble Index + Polar Fringe, to create a marble rally of colorspace craziness, but Prismatic Ray just doesn’t give you enough independent modulators to properly make someone’s eyeballs terrified – swapping it out for a few DWO-3s could work out perfect.
So for what it’s worth, my two cents:
- Modules you love to use in most patches or have developed a strong relationship with, hang onto them. Don’t say goodbye to an old friend presuming there’s going to be a direct replacement you will recognize as the same face. Modules that have always confused you, get used little, are uninspiring, consider swapping those out for some Gen3 modules that will balance the whole system out better.
- Don’t stress about formats too much. BUT maybe consider upgrading to ESG3 or adding one as your primary sync gen / output at some point.
- If I were doing an “HD update” to an Expedition system, I’d swap Visual Cortex for 1x each of
DSG3+ESG3+FKG3. These form a new kind of Visual Cortex without dropping its primary functions (key/fade, sync, ramps/shapes, encoder.) Most Expedition modules should adapt to this as their new HD home base very easily.
#22 — creatorlars · 2021-11-04
7pip wrote:
This 36HP block doesn’t decode though, with TBC2 its huge!
Yes, it would be hard to beat Cortex for variety in HP. If you’re looking for a more minimal system core, ESG3 is a one stop solution at 12HP.
The Automata instruments are meant to be the new generation of Visual Cortexes in a large way – once you have a certain number of features it just makes more sense to make it standalone capable. If Cortex needs to come back as a condensed core, that’s the place to do it (in the Automata series, using the single TBC + encoder + compositor core that Chromagnon uses – Chromagnon is just using it in a very weird, not at all like Cortex way). There’s no rule that Automata instruments have to all be 52HP, either – we can go down to 36HP with the existing design. I had been imagining the next Automata instrument as being more along the lines of an Expanded Cortex / Video Mixer whereas Chromagnon is more Powerful Shape Gen/Processing Module.
#23 — nerdware · 2021-11-04
Thanks, but I can’t build DIY modules. Assembled only. I can use nothing from Thonk.
While I’ve had good experience ordering BSO in the past (from AH), my last experience was painfully expensive (2016). Currency conversion remains a show stopper.
#24 — Rik_bS · 2021-11-04
jwsmithwick1 wrote:
Based on the Gen3 modules that have been announced, I’m sure the new WOTA is going to be way better and less expensive, with a smaller HP footprint.
Now that Lars is in the thread he might set me straight… but I was under the impression the Gen3 range as it stands are very functional building blocks - not so much direct replacements for Expedition series - and the WOTA texture synth concept was potentially being expanded on as a larger Automata instrument (which I would look forward to!).
#25 — creatorlars · 2021-11-04
That’s correct, nothing exactly like WotA is planned, and further down that road I have in mind the texture instrument – but there will certainly be at least one 12HP analog noise and texture module in the Gen3 list somewhere. We’ve suggested it being a “mode” for the planned dual VCF module – that is, white noise generator summed into the filter inputs as a source option. That could dovetail nicely into something resembling the War of the Ants signal flow (noise into separate filters.)
#26 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-04
Yes, I remember reading about that automata instrument as well. Forgot about that. My words on a “new WOTA” were based on the assumption that out of however many Gen3 modules there are on the drawing board, at least one would be noise based, have H and V processing, function in HD and occupy 12hp. Gotta say that the detail on FKG3 is noticeably sharper. I’m excited to work with the Gen3 range.
#27 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-04
That sounds way rad! (Going to have to run my SNOW through a Curtain
)
#28 — Agawell · 2021-11-04
Hi @nerdaware - there are always people who will build diy modules for you - you just need to ask around a bit!
(I’ll be building one in the next few weeks, hopefully - waiting on a couple of parts! and I’m uk based)
#29 — reverselandfill · 2021-11-04
and I’m sure if you ask the original designers, they also can build you a module
#30 — Agawell · 2021-11-04
also true - but then there is the shit show that is brexit to contend with…
#31 — nerdware · 2021-11-04
Yes, it would need to be someone in the UK. That narrows the list of potential builders.
#32 — creatorlars · 2021-11-04
7pip wrote:
But also now that I think about it you only get one output with ESG. The multiple outputs on VC are really handy.
The Component and NTSC/PAL outputs will be active at the same time. We could have doubled up the NTSC/PAL output – but given that it’s only active in non-HD modes, it seemed better to consider video distribution amps as a different module or external box.
#33 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-04
@creatorlars, could the composite out on the ESG3 be used to send out a sync signal when the unit is operating in HD?
#34 — creatorlars · 2021-11-04
jwsmithwick1 wrote:
could the composite out on the ESG3 be used to send out a sync signal when the unit is operating in HD?
No, that is the SD encoder output. The Sync Out signal you should use is on the rear of the module.
ESG3’s outputs include
(1) One SD Composite Encoder output (NTSC/PAL modes only)
(2) One HD/SD Component Encoder output (Enabled in all modes)
(3) One HD/SD Sync output (Enabled in all modes)
There’s definitely a case to make for an ESG3B variant that swaps all the RGB proc amp / colorizer circuitry for direct inputs and frontpanel mounted sync / video distribution amps. Most of the circuitry is on the middle PCB and it is intended to be shared across future variants like this. I just don’t feel like a module like that would be a great variation to start with – it’s better to start if the number of video distribution amps can be scaled by the user (like with an affordable distribution amp module.) Favoring procamp/colorizer controls allows the core ESG3 to be both the main RGB knobs and the output jacks all in one – which I feel like is important if the goal is to make a compact modular video synthesizer.
#35 — jwsmithwick1 · 2021-11-05
Maybe for rev B ESG3, one of the unused dip-switches could be appropriated to enable a front panel sync option for the composite out. I’m using composite outs exclusively and would would love to be able to use that output for sync, even in NTSC.
#36 — creatorlars · 2021-11-05
Maybe for rev B ESG3, one of the unused dip-switches could be appropriated to enable a front panel sync option for the composite out.
The SD encoder won’t output HD sync or signals. It will output SD sync/video when in NTSC/PAL modes.
I’m using composite outs exclusively and would would love to be able to use that output for sync, even in NTSC.
Then you’re in luck, you do get a frontpanel sync out – if you’re using Composite signals only (NTSC/PAL), you could use the Component/Y output as Sync and the Composite output for video.
#37 — wiatrob · 2021-11-05
I have a fairly large system consisting of modules from all the generations. I plan to keep almost everything, though I will pare down on some redundancies (I probably won’t keep 4 Arches when I get Dual Shape, and Chromag will replace a Cortex, etc,) TBH I passed along the Visionary and Expedition modules that didn’t fit my workflow a while back…
There are modules I will likely never part with. while some of the features can be duplicated with new releases, they won’t be in the same package (you can do PWM with prismatic ray and an external multiplier - but it’s built in to a VWG), or with the same workflow. After years of patching I know them well enough that their use is intuitive.
I’ve spoken to other LZX users who feel the same way (like all dinosaurs
)The trick for me becomes what new modules/instruments will integrate into and augment the current workflow - and how easily, given sync and power requirements. I’ve only had FKG3 up since last night, but I quite like it after a few quick patches.
Since I do not care about HD workflows (that’s handled external to the modular), encoders and decoders are pretty much outside the scope of the statements above - except for Cortex, as I use its compositing and colorizing functionality in almost every patch.
#38 — a_digital_index · 2021-11-05
Same Same Same! I’m keeping the G1&2 that speak to me which is a lot. I don’t feel the need to unload any older modules because there is a G3 permutation.
#39 — Jesse · 2021-11-06
You can pry my LZX modules out of my cold dead hands.
I did sell color chords because I’m a VC mixer kinda person but that’s the extent of my parting for the next few decades (unless I need a kidney). Oh and a 2nd cortex, alike Bill Chromag/TBC2 coming made it redundant in my work flow.
Just gonna keep adding here & there. Looking forward to some of the Gen 3 releases, really like the approach.
I’d like to see a big ol voltage controllable video routing matrix. I manage with TVFKG’s, Fox Switches, Marble Index, and Cortex- but it sure would be nice to pile a bunch of video spaghetti in & out and basically just have a nonstop evolving/rotating signal path. Big fan of doing this with modulators/NLC, would love to have a 1 stop module for all the video signal rotations too
#40 — creatorlars · 2021-11-06
If you can think in terms of 2:1 flows (like streams joining into rivers) a few FKG3 goes deep very quickly in terms of big voltage controlled mixing patches. But it’s not exactly the same as a single matrix like you’re talking about. I’d like a bigger 4:2 or 8:2 sequencer/switcher with integrated clock/pattern stuff at some point.
#41 — FranzKappa · 2021-11-07
@rempesm. Good for them,but there was only a very limited amount of them being sold and it’s the smx3 i’m after,not the fkg3 (don’t get me started about the verbs modules,solarium and spritechild) I’ll be getting interested in gen3 modules when they’re available in sufficient quantity,until then i’ll consider them vaporware.
#42 — nerdware · 2021-11-07
I have a similar attitude. Until I can buy a module from a UK shop, it might as well be vapourware. DIY modules are not included as I can’t buy them assembled, so no Cadet, Castle etc.
Unlike the DIY modules, I expect the gen3 modules to eventually appear in a UK shop, but probably not this year. So I would buy a gen3 module like FKG if one were available in the UK, even if I would prefer to see Chromagnon and TBC2 arrive first.
This is simply because many of us have been waiting longer for these modules than gen3.
#43 — creatorlars · 2021-11-07
We have units in stock and all orders have been shipped, on FKG3 right now, and still building more. We’ll be stocking the Gen3 modules continuously. Your perspective of waiting for a bit more permanence before diving in is a perfectly valid concern. That’s what we’re aiming for as well.
A more reliable supply chain / production flow has been a huge part of why we’ve been redesigning everything in the first place. It is a problem that has not been solved fast, but we are finally starting to see the benefits now, of our new approach.
I know we’re far behind on some big projects right now, and have been behind on others in the past, but please remember those are sitting ahead of at least 50 different product designs successfully shipped over the past decade. We’ve always shipped exactly what we offered – it’s just taking a whole lot longer than anticipated this time.
From our last roadmap, the Verbs+Foundations modules concepts morphed into Gen3 as a single series. The series doesn’t have an official name yet, so it’s just been adopted as “Gen3.” Those modules are being released now. Spritechild is just a code name for the project that will follow Fortress/Diver. Solarium is just a code name for the project that will follow Chromagnon. These all just came from a roadmap of 2021-2022 concepts. The roadmap isn’t a list of official releases – it’s a list of ideas we’re pursuing, so that we can communicate the directions we’re going in.
#44 — phosphenes · 2021-11-08
UK based Electronic Engineer here with plenty of DIY modules under my belt, happy to help!
#45 — Z0NK0UT · 2021-11-08
Please get in touch with your favorite UK shop and encourage them to place orders. If UK shops are not sensing demand, they won’t place orders for the new modules.
#46 — nerdware · 2021-11-08
I inquired a while ago.
#47 — saiteron · 2021-11-08
i busted my arse putting together a full Expedition collection. no chance i’m parting with it now, though i may slim down some doubles here and there to upgrade to Gen 3 stuff as it’s released. i also kept one full set of the Cadets that i built when i started my LZX journey. love the modules, can’t imagine selling them off now that i’ve finally begun to learn how they work
#48 — saiteron · 2021-11-08
also my Prismatic Ray array is firmly in the perma-collection, barring the release of a Prismatic Ray V2 with all the goodies from the first version (hi-gain waveshaper, built-in multiplier and offset/mix input) OR a ramp instrument with all of those features built-in. when i first got a Ray i thought it was cool but after playing with a few of them for a while now i can’t imagine video patching without them!
can’t speak much to Gen 1 stuff cuz i missed it all. always been curious about a handful of them tho, including Video Divisions, the original TVFKG and VBM and that video sequencer thing that i don’t remember the name of.
#49 — bebop · 2022-01-17
the only G1 & G2 modules i have are VC, bridge, and the castle osc. dont imagine ill be getting rid of any of them, but i dont imagine ill be
grading to HD unless i pick the right lottery numbers.definitely need more video vcos with more waveforms, more vcas & prob more mixers. i play a triatt in my video rack and it gets way more saturated than my bridge or qvam; hopefully we’ll have a proper video overdrive sometime after the new filter?
the video case is a 6U rackbrute and will probably end up expanded with another some day, i dont want to go to 12U but it feels necessary to have enough modules to process full color signals, im glad the G3 stuff is small enough that 12U looks sufficient from where i sit
#50 — nerdware · 2022-01-17
How’s the RackBrute PSU working for you? Is it clean enough for video? It looks barely deep enough for Gen2 modules, but I’ve used shallow skiffs for video (75mm and 50mm depth). I had to move to a 12U rack to house a pair of Malekko PSUs, to give me cleaner power. So I’m curious about your RackBrute experience.
#51 — bebop · 2022-01-17
the setup aint taxing the power supply, and ive had no problems with it. of course, most of my stuff is silly ptterns on a CRT so idk how good itd work for a G3 HD rig.
its a ridiculously deep case for something so small, one of the benefits of sheet metal. i think modular grid lists the power supply module as 78mm or so, which is about 3" and that seems like about the deepest thing id want in there
if i needed to use backpanel sync over RCA i might look for some slim profile cables but the castle vco is happy with plenty clearance
back to power, i think a couple of the new utility modules or the dual osc would be about as much video stuff as id want to add, but thatd fill the case so nbd. its a moderate supply for video use but the math worked for me and it could def work for some folks
#52 — jnoble · 2022-01-17
Shameless plug: If you’re looking for 1st gen-compatible oscillators, I have 4 Cadet VCOs for sale. Add a Syntonie dual waveshaper (also for sale) and you have a pretty wide shape palette!
#53 — Rik_bS · 2022-01-17
Rackbrute does the job, everything fits and there is enough power for a humble system - I suspect there’s some noise, mainly noticeable on Hard Key and Fortress signals.
Looking to upgrade with a big DIY case and linear PSU, though this is ample for now.I’m still interested in Expedition and DIY, working on a row of Visible Signals right now with Castles to be built soon enough. Will be opportunistic and hope to pick up second hand LZX (tough task in Australia) as people upgrade to Gen3…
#54 — Vdot · 2022-01-18
bebop wrote:
d itd work for a G3 HD rig.>>>> its a ridiculously deep case for something so small, one of the benefits of sheet metal. i think modular grid lists the power supply module as 78mm or so, which is about 3" and that seems like about the deepest thing id want in there>>>> if i needed to use backpanel sync ove
The Gen3 modules can be powered with a common 12v AC adapter with a barrel plug so power really wont an issue anymore. You can buy the official Distro from LZX or a similar solutions for less on Amazon.
#55 — rempesm · 2022-01-18
DC 12V center positive is key here. You’ll likely fry the Gen3 modules with an AC 12V PSU.
#56 — creatorlars · 2022-01-18
This is correct. Since AC wall warts are very rare and uncommon these days, hopefully DC is what they meant.
We need to do some “crash test dummy” testing at some point, to find all the ways to destroy a gen3 power board. The ICs used claim lots of safety features, so I’d hope that shutdown features kick in before anything is damaged. The good news is that if something does blow it, just that rear power assembly needs to be replaced and not the whole module (and that’s the worst case scenario.)
#57 — mrfang · 2022-01-19
What are the similar solutions for less on Amazon?
#58 — Vdot · 2022-01-19
We won’t officially be supporting any daisy chain cables just because it’s a potential liability. You do not want to have loose/disconnected hanging DC barrels crammed behind the modules in your rack after installation – that could short against parts or connectors on the rear circuit boards and cause issues. So if you have unused connectors on your daisy chain cable, be sure you cap them with an insulated barrier or insulate them with electrical tape, etc before power up. > Also, with daisy ch…>
https://www.amazon.com/Fancy-Buying-100V-240V-Certified-Transformers-Fits/dp/B076HKCRNG
#59 — creatorlars · 2022-01-19
mrfang wrote:
What are the similar solutions for less on Amazon?
To widen the search, just look into 12V power options for Broadcast gear, CCTV gear, and LED lighting in general. The use of 2.1mm barrel connectors and 12V supplies is commonplace, and there will be many options for anything from single wall-warts to rack mounted, multi-output CCTV supplies.
For example, same kind of thing from a CCTV supplier (a little pricier than Amazon, but quality may vary.)
https://www.cctvsecuritypros.com/accessories/4-camera-dc-power-supply/Find CCTV power supply adapters for your security cameras at CCTV Security Pros. Order quality 4-channel CCTV camera power supply adapters online here.
Average Rating: 5
Price: USD 35.99
Link: 4 Camera DC Power Supply
#60 — mrfang · 2022-01-19
Very helpful, thank you.