Gen3 Utility Power Issues
Category: Helpdesk · Tags: gen3, stairs, sumdist · Posts: 36
#1 — Z0NK0UT · 2022-07-08
Edit: A recall for affected modules has been announced.
Comments moved from All About Stairs, as this seems to be an issue that affects the new Gen3 utility modules (which share a power board).
Abiogenosis wrote:
Excited! I just got my stairs today, but I’m experiencing some issues. I actuallly cannot get the unit to power on if it’s plugged into my case. However, if I plug the unit in > > after> > I’ve powered my case on it works.
I have a MDLR Case with with the stock Doepfer PSU3. I even unplugged a number of modules to confirm it wasn’t some sort of power drain issue.
Any thoughts?
rempesm wrote:
I had a similar issue with the Eurorack power input and chalked it up to my PSU being too loaded down. Have you tried powering it up with the 12V DC barrel connector? That has worked 100% for me. I haven’t tried powering it up with the Eurorack connector as the only module on a Capsule yet.
Abiogenosis wrote:
Unfortunately, I don’t have a 12V DC barrel connector to attempt this. I unpluged all modules from my system apart from my Mainbow, Memory Palace and Stairs to test if it was a draw issue (I need the Mainbow / Memory palace to get some output at minimum) and I still experience the same issue.
I went even further and plugged only my Mainbow and Stairs in and still could not get Stairs to work on powerup. I had to plug the module into the Euro board after powering the case on to get it to function.
> > EDIT> > >>>> My MDLR case is two pieces with two separate power supplies as well so I plugged my Mainbow into one and the Stairs into the other. They were both the only modules on each of the two PSUs and I still experienced the same issue.
#2 — Z0NK0UT · 2022-07-08
It appears that some eurorack power supplies do not provide sufficient current at power-on for the recently-designed power PCB used by the new Gen3 utility modules. So far this issue affects Proc, Stairs, and Sum/Dist when used with TipTop, Intellijel TPS30 MAX, Pulplogic LBZ54, Arturia Rackbrute 3U and Doepfer power supplies.
One immediate solution is to unplug and reconnect the module’s ribbon cable with the eurorack supply already powered on. Another solution is to use the 12V barrel connection on the back of the module to supply power, in lieu of eurorack ribbon connection.
This issue is being investigated for immediate correction.
Note that Matte, due to its low current draw, powers on correctly with all eurorack supplies.
#3 — Abiogenosis · 2022-07-08
Thank you for your quick reply Chad!
Also shout out to @brownshoesonly for doing some ad hoc diagnosis late last night in the LZX discord
#4 — HeWhoWantsJeans · 2022-07-09
The issue, as I understand it, sounds similar to some issues I’ve had with other modules that were solved by using a WMD Soft Start. For those affected but looking to use the Eurorack header - has anyone tried (or would) a WMD Soft Start work as a fix?
https://wmdevices.com/products/soft-start-modulePro level power handling The WMD Soft Start Module is an inline buffer module that goes in between your power supply and modules that draw high current on power up. Use to ensure a consistent and reliable power up each time you turn on your...
Price: USD 30
Link: Soft Start Module
#5 — creatorlars · 2022-07-09
We did quite a lot of testing on this yesterday, and will continue to investigate different solutions to this issue.
So far we can say that Tip Top Audio Mantis PSU and Doepfer PSU3 are the only EuroRack power supplies effected by the issue so far. These are power supplies we’ve recommended in the past, and they are great power supplies, but there is a cold start interaction between these PSUs and the latest revision of our 12V power backpack board (used in one variant or another on all of our current modules.)
So soft start relay based fixes like recommended above might resolve the problem – we are going to test what’s available out there and confirm what works here. We picked up a Mantis case to use for testing.
Our most recommended fix is to power your modules using 12V power via the DC barrel. We offer the DC Distro module as one option, but there are plenty of affordable 12V supplies available out there, designed for LED lighting and CCTV markets. Search on Amazon or B&H Photo Video for example, for 12V DC power supply with splitter for example.
Of course, I understand some of you need these modules to be compatible with your existing case/power solutions. So we’ll come up with some low impact solutions there, one way or another. It just will take some time to do the testing and revision.
So get in contact if you are effected by this issue and we’ll do our best to keep you all updated.
#6 — thenoiseoftime · 2022-07-09
What about the other GEN3 modules? Have been made tests already?
#7 — Nightmaneuver · 2022-07-10
Damn I have both types of PSU’s only.
I had noticed just the other day my FKG3 wasnt working a reboot fixed it.
Now the 12v distros on the website are sold out.
When will more distros come back in stock?
#8 — analogbrainsurgeon · 2022-07-10
The power issue is pretty big to be honest. Will the LZX power distros we ordered last year (or whenever) actually ship at the same time as TBC2? I ordered mine a LONG time ago and the information available just says that they’ll ship with TBC2, but given the delays, why not just ship those out to people that ordered them a year ago?
#9 — brownshoesonly · 2022-07-10
We don’t break up orders unless you want to pay a second shipping charge or some other circumstance exists.
Always recommended to buy In stock and preorder items separately fir this reason.
Last I checked Friday. Perfect circuit has dc distros. New distros were originally on this week’s manufacture list
#10 — wednesdayayay · 2022-07-10
haha yeah
I’ve got so many cables that I’ve added to preorders. It will be a nice surprise when it all comes
#11 — analogbrainsurgeon · 2022-07-10
I would argue that the ‘other circumstance’ would be the massive delay… maybe like a goodwill gesture to get people what they’ve paid for long ago, especially since the power distros now seem mandatory to use Gen3 modules. That said, I’m not mad or anything, I’m super excited about the impending releases, but as much of a huge advocate of LZX as I am, some of these practices are clearly turning off long time customers. I want everyone there to succeed in the mission, and I am very much looking forward to the future. Hopefully TBC2 and Chromagnon get released soon and all of these concerns are a thing of the past. Best of luck and most positive encouragement to all of you that are doing the work to bring the product to market.
Also, at the time I bought the power distro and added it to my TBC2 order the power distro was not yet released and the claim was that they’d be released together, if that clears some confusion about my point of view on this.
#12 — dryodryo · 2022-07-10
Ha, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I guess this is what happens to early adopters. I seriously thought the Doepfer PSU3 was the gold standard, and the Gen3 power was the best of the best. I spent a lot of time in Excel calculating power draws and determined that I didn’t need a DC Distro in this A-100G6. Oh well, best laid plans of mice and men. I guess it’s a Perfect Circuit order for me. The Soft Start module would be way too expensive, I’d need one for each Gen3 Module.
Please add me to the list of affected users. If there’s a power board revision I’ll want to get these PROCs and STAIR swapped out.
Thanks,
Aaron
#13 — dryodryo · 2022-07-10
Frak, Perfect Circuit sold out already. Now I have to pay extra and get one shipped from Scotland.
I would say this was a fumble
#14 — pbalj · 2022-07-10
A DC distro is not necessary. You can get a 12V psu from many sources, ex. amazon, and use a daisy chain cable like that used for powering guitar pedals.
like this:
just make sure the physical dimensions of the barrel are the same, et voila.
#15 — analogbrainsurgeon · 2022-07-10
That’s not really an acceptable solution in this case. Why should someone have to buy ANOTHER power solution when the first “best” one was already paid for over a year ago at a premium price? I get that you’re trying to be helpful and I appreciate that, but it’s getting to the point that it’s hard to let the company off the hook for some of these delays and missed promises. I maintain my optomism, but being told reasonable observations and concerns are in fact not real concerns is itself unreasonable.
#17 — pbalj · 2022-07-10
I’m just offering alternative solutions for people who haven’t purchased a DC distro, or whatever the case may be.
#18 — analogbrainsurgeon · 2022-07-10
Absolutely, I appreciate your suggestion and hope that my reply wasn’t taken as a personal slight against you.
My intent is to have the root issues addressed, and my posts about this are meant in good faith and with admiration for the overall vision of Lars and LZX. I really enjoy this community and the people that make it up, especially the few people designing and producing these very unique tools. I maintain my goodwill and optimism and understand the reason for things being the way they are currently is not a simple issue to address in general. At the same time, as a customer I expect any company I do business with (in personal life or in business life) to treat me as an intelligent being and to attempt to correct issues to the best of their ability when things go wrong. There are good and bad ways to handle these issues, and we’ve seen the wrong way to ask for clarification and help with expectations in the past and this is my attempt at doing this the right way. I definitely don’t want to give Lars heartburn when it seems we’re on the home stretch of a multi-year goal. For what it’s worth I think he and the team have good intentions and are trying their best and I appreciate that we have these tools because of their dedication to a very unique, niche vision. I REALLY like LZX and have invested 10s of thousands in the ecosystem with no regrets. I hope what I consider reasonable complaints and inquiries are received by LZX and the community in a constructive way.
#19 — Nightmaneuver · 2022-07-10
Damn went to bed and woke up with Perfect Circuit out of stock too.
Good luck on the re-stock. I might just make my own. Cheers for the hard work!
#20 — creatorlars · 2022-07-10
thenoiseoftime wrote:
What about the other GEN3 modules? Have been made tests already?
The issue effects the new version of the rear power supply PCBA only. We had to revise because of being unable to source the power supply LDOs originally used, and one of the new parts has introduced the issue. It’s the kind of thing that will inevitably pop up so long as there are massive delays or unexpected availability in the electronics component market. At least we just had to revise our power board (and can revise it again) instead of having to revise all modules.
I seriously thought the Doepfer PSU3 was the gold standard, and the Gen3 power was the best of the best.
If ideal or “best” is the goal, the best option would be avoiding EuroRack power supplies entirely, and use 12V DC directly to power the Gen3 modules.
#21 — creatorlars · 2022-07-10
We’ll take good care of everyone dealing with this, don’t worry! It could be that we can resolve the issue with a simple rework procedure. It could be that we can do a mail swap for a new power board. I just can’t start making promises on how or when, before we have a tested solution (this just came up on Friday for me.) So the suggestion to use 12V DC power is just the best solution we have, for now. Y’all don’t need to go replanning or rebuilding your systems over this. Just give us a few days to come up with the right solution. We’ll keep you updated.
We’ve also purchased the EuroRack PSUs with the issues reported so we can make sure any revisions of the PSU board in the future don’t have any issues with startup.
If we want to look on the bright side, this scenario could be way worse! We only have to worry about an issue on a single board here, one that can be replaced by the user if necessary with a screwdriver. So having a modular power architecture is going to pay off for us here. Otherwise we’d be looking at needing to revise several PCBs instead of just one.
#22 — dryodryo · 2022-07-11
pbalj wrote:
A DC distro is not necessary. You can get a 12V psu from many sources
Yeah, but the LZX DC Distro is far better because it’s Eurorack mounted. I’m not a fan of random cables kludged into a hot rack. This is why I went with the Doepfer in the first place, it’s bulletproof.
#23 — Dewb · 2022-07-11
I shared this on Discord earlier but just in case it helps to memorialize it: here are the results I got with Stairs when I tested the supplies I have on hand. (For my audio modular I like small cases, and I just replaced a couple and haven’t sold the old ones, so I have a few extra models sitting around.)
Working: Malekko Power 1.3, 4ms POD 48X, Make Noise skiff Not working: Intellijel TPS30 MAX, Pulplogic LBZ54, Arturia Rackbrute 3U
The only one that really surprised me was the Intellijel, since other people reported that IJ supplies worked – maybe the other modules I have in that case are a factor, or maybe everyone else has the TPS80 MAX instead of the 30?
(ETA: My video case uses Malekkos and 12V barrel distribution, so I’m all set, this was just for science!)
#24 — nerdware · 2022-07-11
dryodryo wrote:
I seriously thought the Doepfer PSU3 was the gold standard, and the Gen3 power was the best of the best.
Gen3 is indeed the “best of the best”. 12dc is an industry standard in the video world. I’m very happy that LZX has finally caught up, but please give them a chance to get this right. None of this is easy. These are not ideal times for doing any this. We were warned. Being an early adopter is risky at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.
For some personal perspective, please let me share some of my experience with Eurorack power supplies so far.
The Doepfer PSU was never an option for me. I’ve struggled with power issues since 2015. So many people just said “Doepfer” like everyone can use that. So many people offered a DIY solution as if everyone can do that. Not just in a Euro context, nevermind a videosynth context. It was even worse in the 5U world.
I eventually found a clean power solution (Malekko) for video that I could use (with a bit of help from friends and family.) My first cabinet filled up and I began working on the second cab. That took a lot longer than expected - the Malekko PSUs were no longer available to me. So a lot of time and effort was spent looking at alternatives, which all disappointed me.
Now at last I have a PSU solution for my second cabinet of video modules (Gen3 and DC Distro). I’m selling all the modules that won’t fit in the cab1 and using the money to populate cab2. So far, that’s two Gen3 modules. I hope to buy maybe one of each Gen3 modules announced so far. After that, I expect I’ll be done. Full endgame, no more money, no more modules. Cab2 will unlikely ever be completely filled, but I may get it half full. The single DC Distro I have may be enough for that.
So I have no complaints about PSU issues. Just a lot of anxiety about whether I can sell all the Gen2 modules that I can’t use anymore. (Please PM me for details if you want to help by buying some of them!)
BTW, I’ve been talking about this for years. See the power thread elsewhere on this forum. I may have even posted pics of the Malekko solution. Hint: cab1 is much heavier than cab2.
So I don’t understand how anyone else can complain. It’s not like you’re weren’t warned. I’ve been warning you all for years. There are plenty of warnings about power issues from others - for years. This includes power-up problems. People have been designing solutions to this for years. Some of them are DIY and fairly obscure, but this problem has been known for many years. I feel no sympathy for anyone who wasn’t paying attention, didn’t do any research. or simply didn’t notice any of us. I’d feel hurt, but as I said. I now have solutions for both my cabinets. I have an Endgame in sight. I have goals and a plan for achieving them. I recommend that everyone think about their goals and make realistic plans for them. You’ll save yourself a lot of grief. You can start by reading and learning from all the experience on this forum. It’s right here. No effort needed; just a little time for reading.
I offer this in the hope that it helps. None of the above is a criticism of anyone. My intention is purely constructive.
Finally: In my experience, LZX after-sales support is superb. Please be patient and you will be satisfied.
#25 — dryodryo · 2022-07-11
nerdware wrote:
So I don’t understand how anyone else can complain. It’s not like you’re weren’t warned. I’ve been warning you all for years.
Hey, I’m not complaining. It’s more of an inconvenience than anything.
Sorry if I didn’t see your warnings, I’ve only been on this site consistently since October of last year when I started buying modules. So this does come as a surprise.
Apparently it’s a surprise to everyone; supply chain issues are a major problem. But LZX has been smart enough to design all of the modules … modular.
So if something goes wonky with the power board, it doesn’t turn the whole unit into a doorstop.As far as selling your Expedition modules, no need to worry about that. There is a very healthy market for used LZX gear. It has all retained its value, in some cases actually appreciated, and there’s no shortage of hungry artists. It’s a seller’s market, to be sure.
#26 — Marizu · 2022-07-11
nerdware wrote:
So I don’t understand how anyone else can complain. It’s not like you’re weren’t warned. I’ve been warning you all for years. There are plenty of warnings about power issues from others - for years. This includes power-up problems. People have been designing solutions to this for years. Some of them are DIY and fairly obscure, but this problem has been known for many years. I feel no sympathy for anyone who wasn’t paying attention, didn’t do any research. or simply didn’t notice any of us.
This is a worldwide consideration. Different markets have different availability of certain products. Malekko power was barely available in the UK, and only for a very short period of time. Vessel had very limited availability over here.
Doepfer cases (featuring PSU2 and PSU3) are widely available in the UK and Europe. They are well made cases with powerful PSU’s, not DIY. They are available with lids and can be closed patched. They have constantly remained in stock over the last decade.
I’m confident that this will all sort out but it isn’t about people not paying attention.
#27 — creatorlars · 2022-07-11
Nick and I worked out a fix this morning – currently the module’s +/-5V LDOs power up simultaneously after the +5.5V rail goes online. By changing the -5V to be enabled only after the +5V is good, it appears to have resolved the startup issue. The rework involves a simple trace cut + rework wire installation – not really possible to do on the user side, and needs an experienced SMT technician.
There’s a recall callout here, so you can send in your modules to get the correction:
LZX Industries announces a recall of Stairs, Proc, and Sum/Dist modules shipped before July 11, 2022.> The recall is necessary because some eurorack power supplies will not provide sufficient initial current to immediately power the modules. Recalled modules will receive modifications to their PSU assemblies that allow them to be used with all eurorack power supplies. This recall is optional. If your module is working as expected, or if you prefer to switch to direct 12V power, you are not requi…>
#28 — cata · 2022-07-11
very cool. awesome you guys are so responsive to these issues!
#29 — dryodryo · 2022-07-11
Thanks Lars, much appreciated. Class act, 100%
#30 — nerdware · 2022-07-12
Wow, that means without the Malekko PSUs, I would now be selling all my Gen2 modules. Yes. All of them. All my Gen1 modules too.
And I’d be really very unhappy about it.
#31 — Cappiecasparov · 2022-07-22
Another “works” is MDLR’s Eurorack case powered busboard 85W.
#32 — Dr_Rek · 2023-04-03
So last week my visual cortex started turning off and overheating in my TipTop Mantis case, I isolated it into a 4ms Pod case and seems to be stable again. Seems like I have to take all my Gen3 stuff out of the tiptop power sharing even though nothing is over 80-90% use of rated power per supply, and it working fine for a few sessions before this (WEIRD). Going to try that this week with my DC distro that formerly was powering memory palaces, but not necessary for them. Time to order more jumper cables. Has anyone tried this daisy chain cable method and can recommend the right size and provider to order it from if it works well?
#33 — Dr_Rek · 2023-04-03
From @deepflayke on Discord https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WITO1J2?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dp_2EXH0KD0QPE2A4ZHH96X
#34 — acidk · 2023-04-05
Does anybody have experiences with Gen 3 and the Erica PSUs?
Cheers!
#35 — Z0NK0UT · 2023-04-05
So long as the power supply provides sufficient current for your module array, any supply should work.
#36 — creatorlars · 2023-04-05
Dr_Rek wrote:
Has anyone tried this daisy chain cable method and can recommend the right size and provider to order it from if it works well?
Any 2.1mm DC barrel should work, so you can use the type designed for pedalboards. Just be careful about floating unterminated DC connectors inside the case, as the sleeve of the connector will short out anything it touches.
#37 — Dr_Rek · 2023-04-17
Ended up getting these recommended by @HBCoffin
amazon.comhttps://www.amazon.com/GINTOOYUN-Splitter-Adapter-Extension-Security/dp/B09M81T6D4Buy GINTOOYUN DC 5.5mm x 2.1mm Splitter Cable, 1 Female to 5 Male DC Splitter Adapter 12V DC Power Extension Cable for LED Strip Light, CCTV Security Camera 0.7m (1 to 5 Way): Surveillance Camera Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on...
Link: Amazon.com: GINTOOYUN DC 5.5mm x 2.1mm Splitter Cable, 1 Female to 5 Male DC...
amazon.comhttps://www.amazon.com/GINTOOYUN-Splitter-Supply-Security-Cameras/dp/B09TK8C83FBuy GINTOOYUN 2 PCS DC Y Splitter Power Cable 18AWG DC 5.5MM x 2.1MM Male to Dual DC 5.5MM x 2.1MM Male Supply Splitter Cable for LED Light Bar CCTV Security Cameras etc(1FT): Surveillance Camera Cables - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on...
Link: Amazon.com: GINTOOYUN 2 PCS DC Y Splitter Power Cable 18AWG DC 5.5MM x 2.1MM...
Using the 5 way and it seems to be no problem so far.